I have noticed that several members of this site have cited their Christian view of Hell as justification for their views. Thus, I found it appropriate to further explore this idea. Here are some problems I've encountered with the idea of Hell in Christianity:

1. If God is all-knowing, he would know what would happen to us when we die, correct? Before he creates us, even despite free-will, he would know what paths we would take and whether or not we would suffer for all eternity. He is all-knowing, mind you. So, if he is also all-loving and all-merciful, why would he even bother creating us if he knew that we would ultimately end up suffering for all eternity?

2. The average person lives for about 80 years, more or less. Eternity is a hell of a lot longer than 80 years. What can we do during that short time on Earth that would justify an eternity of pain and torture?

3. Even we sinful, imperfect Americans knows that any amount of torture for any duration is barbaric. That's why our Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. So why does God, proportedly the most perfect, loving, merciful being in the universe, allow it to happen, FOR ETERNITY no less?

4. Physical pain is registered through nerve endings that send signals to our brain. When we die, we leave both behind. How does one feel pain without a body?

5. Why is eternal punishment necessary? Punishment, by its nature, is an attempt to change a behavior. When a child does wrong, they are grounded or given a time out. Or an adult may be fined or sent to prison for illegal activities. In eternal punishment, however, there is no chance for redemption. You just suffer...forever. What's the point?

These are just a few of the conundrums I've faced with this issue, and so far no one I know has been able to answer them satisfactorily.

You bring up some very logical questions. I cannot give you any answers because I have never died or at least remembered what it was like to die. I have nothing but more questions to add to yours:
1) If God gave us a choice of Free Will, then what kind of choice is it really that if we make the wrong choice we die forever out of the light of God? That doesn't sound like a choice at all.
2) How do we know that what we have been told thoughout history is true concerning our judgement and Hell? What IF it's not like that at all?
Thanks for your post. This should be a good thread barring any stupid posts by the usual suspects.

jabra

Good questions, why dont Christian preachers and priests ask them?

The common perception of heaven and hell are not from the Bible but seem to come to us from Dante's Inferno. The Biblical explaination is quite different.

Time and the universe are God's creation and He lives beyond both and is not constrained by them, we live within the creation and are subject to the physical laws of it. God is able from His perspective to look upon it from past to present to future and can see what we have done with our freedom to choose our own course. So we have free will and He knows how we will choose.

When you die, you are dead, no thought, no life, not even hope exists because we cease to exist. Our hope is with Jesus Christ and the ressurection of the dead.

Hell and hades is simply the grave where our lifeless bodies await ressurection to everlasting life or to judgement. Those who reject the rule of Our Lord will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death from which there is no ressurection.

Unrepentent sinners will be punished by fire but it is not eternal punishment, it is punishment by Eternal fire or a special fire which comes from the Eternal, God.

Dont take my word for this, read it yourself. Get a Bible and concordance, study the meaning of key words in the original language. Divest yourself of all preconcieved ideas that originate with organized religions. And, remember that there was no punctuation in the original writings.

CW and Jabra,
So far, the best answer I've gotten from anyone (priests included) to these questions was, "I don't really know, because as far as I know, I've never died before." In fact, priests and many other people do consider these kinds of questions. Often the best they can say is, "It's what I believe."
I believe it is important for questions like these to be taken into consideration.

Not that I believe in all of this, but I think some theologians would respond as follows to some of your points. For instance:

Smackshot wrote:

Some, but not all, punishment is an "attempt to change a behavior." It can hardly be said that the death penalty or life imprisonment is such an attempt - these are more retributive in nature than corrective, no?

Your "chance at redemption" - to avoid eternal punishment - comes during your time on earth. How many "chances" at redemption should God give you?? At some point, final judgment must be rendered and the opportunity for redemption must be foreclosed.

If the reward for "redemption" achieved during one's life is eternal happiness in heaven, then - logically - there must be some counter-vailing "eternal punishment" for rejecting God/mortal sin during one's life. If not, then "redemption" is without meaning.

dvb

Free will. He creates us and gives us a chance to decide. He uses those who reject him, still, to do good. Even though we cannot see it or understand. Look at that girl who was shot in the face, blinded and raped repeatedly, she became a great Christian speaker, she would not have been had it not happened. This is just one example.

Reject him over and over and over, and die never accepting him. It is that simple. Either eternal reward or eternal punishment. Pick one. The answer is binary in nature.

God is not a omnitient cosmic rapist. He merely respects your choice prior to leaving the earth. The rules are, that unless you are perfect when you face him, you are screwed. We are perfect in Christ. Those not in Christ are on their own and doomed. He allows us to choose. He does not want robots, he wants children who love him. Just like you want your children to love you, and not some robot to keep saying it with no real meaning.

The pain comes from the mental torment of knowing you had chances again and again, and continued to reject the gift of salvation, and then when judged and sentenced to eternity without the presence of God, you spend it in agonizing regret, remorse, and gried which knows no end and only grows in magnitude over eternity. That is the pain, the pain of knowing that you made the wrong choice.

Not all punishment is to correct behavior. Capital punishment is an example. The point is to read the Bible, and decide, now, before you die or before he comes back. That is the point.

And no one will as you are using wordly wisdom and not wisdom of faith and understanding. Not until you choose to trust him, and his word and his promise, will you begin to understand. Usually, some crisis for most, such as death in family, near death, financial disaster, lost love, etc, before one comes to the point where they are willing to let go and let God.

EdwBob

Smackshot wrote:

Reminds me of an old joke --- Do know why we have belly buttons? It's where God says you're done, you're done, you're done ....

I guess I believe Mankind is a creation of God and as Individuals we come into being as part of the creation process but not necessarily made to order one by one as a direct action of God. Hence our belly buttons are due to the cutting and tying of the umbilicle cord.

Concerning, eternal punishment. I believe it's a 2 part process. We reject God and at the time of judgement - God accepts it. After which there is no mulligans.

I tend to agree with Jabra.... and Lewis .... I don't believe in fire and brimstone. After judgment, those not claimed by God will for eternity be excluded from the presence of God. Such people will then realize their loss and will mourn this loss for all eternity. Complete realization of their loss will create great dispair. But this idea is perhaps different from Luke who wrote...

Smackshot wrote:

If hell is mental anguish is the being seperated from God for all eternity then nerve endings are not required....

conversely - if hell is physical torture (fire and brimstone) then I guess the answer would be -- does your being (soul) suffer from physical pain now that you are in your physical body? I don't think so, but the opposit seems true. Great dispair to your soul seems to have physical implications perhaps best described as pain. Which leads me back to my believe hell is other than fire and brimstone.

EdwBob wrote:

Again, not that I believe in all of this, but an alternative theological answer is that yes, hell has actual, real fire.

That fire is eternal and, therefore, either (1) burns without the consumption of fuel or (2) the fuel source is infinite and inexhaustible.

If God can make a real, physical fire that burns without consuming fuel or an infinite fuel source, he could - being God - make you feel real, physical pain in the absence of a physical nervous system.

Smackshot

Very provocative answers, all. Good to see you are really thinking about this, and even taking the time to write about it.

dvb,
Those are basically the same responses I get when I ask these questions to Fundamentalists. The problem is, even in the context of your own faith in an all-knowing, all-loving God, it does not make sense. If God knows what is going to happen to us before he even creates us, he would know whether or not we are going to Hell. If he does not, he is not all-knowing. If he knows, and still chooses to create us anyone, how could one call him good? He creates people so they may ultimately suffer for all eternity. Any concept of free will is irrelevant, he knows.
Oh, thank you God for making me me
so I can suffer for all eternity... ?

Rumblefish,
Giving someone the death penalty or life imprisonment is NOT even remotely comparable to an eternity of pain and torture. While it is true that those are punishments of retribution rather than rehabilitation, it still stands that torture, let alone eternal torture, is inhumane even by our lowly human standards. And this is the ULTIMATE BEING we're talking about.

EdwBob,
I agree that if there was a Hell, the torment would be something other than (but comparable to) physical pain. What you said about "we come into being as part of the creation process but not necessarily made to order one by one as a direct action of God" reminded me of something someone said to me in response to that question. He said, "God can know what'll happen when we die, but he chooses not to." Still not a very good answer in my opinion, but provocative nonetheless. It shows that with all that is said in the Bible, and other holy texts, there is still extremely little we know about the nature of the God of Christianity.
Is all of this just a roll of the dice? If so, does that make God any less responsible in our ultimate eternal suffering? And if our only choices are between two extremes (Heaven and Hell), do we really have "free will?"

dvb

You seem to equate knowing our ulitimate destiny with being responsible for it. They are not the same. He gives us the gift of free will, that the angels do not have. They do not have free will like we do. That is why we will rule over the angels when we get into heaven. We choose to be there.

I think your logic is flawed in asserting that God should only create beings he knows are going to be saved. He gives us the ability to choose but he knows already who will choose wisely and who will fail. He uses even those who fail for good.

We call God good because he is. WE cannot understand his infinite ways with our finite minds. Our idea of what is fair in regard to God, is about a million times as lame as when we pass judgement on our teens and adolescents on punishment and they say that we are not fair. They lack understanding and maturity on fairness, while we lack righteousness and holiness.

Just my take on it and what I have nabbed over the years on the subject.

Barmax

(to dvb)

It is an opinion,and never proven. I would believe the mediums like Edaward,and Altea before I believe this.

BM, I can provide chapter and verse for this, as the reason I have come to believe it,was that it was shown to me by theologians and scholars who I have listened to or read. WTF is Edaward or Altea? Do you know that using mediums is a sin? I can show you that chapter and verse also.

Regardless of what you believe, BM, if you continue in inpenitent sexual immorality, which would be sex outside of a married husband and wife, you will be running headfirst against a certain judgment as Christ said those who were sexually immoral would not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then again, you don't understand or care for that as you don't believe in the Bible. Better bone up on your law degree dude. You will face God all on your own, and have to account for every little sin you ever did, both committed and ommitted. I prefer not having to face that, but you choose your way, on your own, and you will get exactly that. Be careful what you wish for, God just might give it to you. Forever.

EdwBob

Smackshot

• "God can know what'll happen when we die, but he chooses not to." Still not a very good answer in my opinion, but provocative nonetheless." I don't think it quite works that way... my take is that God is beyond time in the sense that he is aware of events that are in human perspective -past, present and future - as events, not time based if you will. The important difference from what your friend suggests and my point of view .... the events HAVE to take place, then God knows.

• "It shows that with all that is said in the Bible, and other holy texts, there is still extremely little we know about the nature of the God of Christianity." This point is an example that separates the Fundamentalist view from others. The Fundamentalist would argue that the Bible is a word for word dictation from God and answers all questions. Whether we understand fully is the issue. From my perspective your question reflects the importance of Theology (study of God). We each have a glimpse of what God is like from personal experience. The accumulation of such glimpses add to the meaning of the Bible which makes it "a living Bible" if you will and a 'more complete' interpretation of God. In short, I think we have the basic understanding of what God wants and expects - but fall short on the why's and where for's....

It seems a lot of people have responded with the same "free will" and "need for justice" responses I've always seemed to get when asking these questions. Problem is, we're not talking about a slap on the wrist or time in the slammer. This is Eternal Punishment, everlasting pain, torture, agony, mashing of teeth, rivers of fire, getting eaten, digested, pooped out, getting eaten again, etc. Forever and ever and ever. I mean, doesn't anyone else find that just a little bit harsh? Our time on Earth is very limited, so why is the punishment eternal?
And no one seems to have really touched on my comment of torture being barbaric. So why does God allow it when even we measly humans do not?

(to Smackshot)

Why does God allow what? Why does he allow eternal damnation. Because his rules are set, that when you die, the solution is binary. Eternity with him, or eternity without him. Simple solution. Simple choice. He simply respects your choice BEFORE you die. For he knows most will change their mind after they die, but that defeats the puprose.

Matt 25:1
1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9"‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’
12"But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

This is story Christ told to help us understand the nature of the decision. Choose before he comes or before you die, for afterwards, it is too late.

What if the punishment is self imposed? Those who chose to deny God - continue to degrade, debase, punish themselves eternally? Extend the sadomachistic mentally to infinity? I am not saying that is hell, but I think it gets my point across.

Lewis - believed that enternal life in heaven is not set in stone either. In short Lewis suggests that we continue to grow closer to God in likeness forever. That this process is not guaranteed and that we can grow away from God even while in heaven (now that's a scary thought). The reverse process - from hell to heaven - doesn't happen because it's a downward process (no pun intended) meaning that you continue to shape your soul in a negative fashion.

So far, I haven't been found the biblical foundation for Lewis's theology other then in a generalized way. This whole topic is presented in a good film called "Shadowland" which is kinda hard to find at the video stores.

Smackshot

It's an interesting thought, EwBob, and further illustrates that there are different ideas even within the nature of heaven and hell. When I ask what could facilitate eternity in a place like Hell, from Christians I often get the response "by denying God". But how do you deny God? By not believing in him or just by being a "bad person?" This is often the sticking point, as Christians often have different opinions on the necessity of belief in God/Christ. If there is a necessity, what of the other two-thirds of the world who are not Christian? (If there is not a necessity, how will they scare other people into believing what they believe?)

Smackshot

(to dvb)

But what constitutes such a "binary" decision? Acts or beliefs? What if you are a very good, virtuous person, but do not believe in the Christian God? What if you are a shaman, or a Jewish Rabbi? Or what of the folks who lack virtue, but believe in Christ as their savior? In other words, no one is "binary." With few exceptions, there are no "good" or "bad" people, so why is there only a "good" or a "bad" place they can go?

NIMBY

Did he? Where did he say that? He very well may have but if he did do you think he was being hypocritical, then, when he (according to Matthew 12:31) said

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

Most even marginally educated Christians believe it is clear that Jesus' death and sacrifice on the cross was powerful enough to forgive any general and all specific sins, except that of blasphemy against God and Christ. So what kind of person will never be forgiven? The person whose life opposes God and rejects Jesus Christ.

Rumblefish

I think you have to turn the question around to get an appropriate answer.

That is: our time of earth IS short . . . so why should good, pious people who don't turn from God while they are alive - which is for only a short time - enjoy "eternal joy" in heaven?? The only answer is: this is the "reward" that God promises to the "upright" who don't reject him.

If the "reward" for the "upright" is "eternal joy," the the opposite side of the coin has to be - logically - "eternal pain" for the "non-upright" who rejected God. If it were not, then the "upright" and the "non-upright" would be treated the same - which doesn't seem fair - especially to those who were upright and followed God during their life - does it?

Furthermore, those who are finally adjudged "non-upright" can hardly complain that they haven't been warned about such a "harsh" penalty. I mean, the Bible spells out the two alternatives pretty clearly doesn't it?

If - in the Bible - God promises "eternal joy" for the upright and threatens "eternal punishment" for the "non-upright," those promises and threats mean nothing if he doesn't carry through with them.

Whether "eternal punishment" is in the form of eternal spiritual torment or actual physical torment is a difference without distinction isn't it??

NIMBY

Hey it's His Heaven. If it were your Heaven and you had just mopped the floor, would you let people walk around it with muddy boots on?

Again, what constitutes such opposition, rejection, and blasphemy? Not believing in God/Christ? Questioning people that do? Being in opinion that such belief is silly?
Or is it about the way you act in everyday life? If so, what constitutes not acting in accordance with God? Which is the greater sin, using contraception or stealing a candy bar from a convenience store? Are all sins created equal? How many sins does it take to completely reject God?
And finally, how does any of this justify eternal punishment?

NIMBY

Smackshot wrote:

NIMBY wrote:

Most even marginally educated Christians believe it is clear that Jesus' death and sacrifice on the cross was powerful enough to forgive any general and all specific sins, except that of blasphemy against God and Christ. So what kind of person will never be forgiven? The person whose life opposes God and rejects Jesus Christ.

Again, what constitutes such opposition, rejection, and blasphemy?

The following are my beliefs, as a Christian who is studying and striving for knowledge ...

Most Christian biblical scholars say that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against God and Christ (sin Christ is quoted as having said that). Yes that means opposing and rejecting Him (Them, as parts of the Holy Trilogy).

Smackshot wrote:

Not believing in God/Christ?

Certainly.

Smackshot wrote:

Questioning people that do?

Well that doesn't appear to me to be blasphemy in and of itself, but it is hard for me to believe that someone would question people who believe in God and Christ and at the same time believe in god and Christ him/herself.

Smackshot wrote:

Being in opinion that such belief is silly?

Yep that would be blasphemy.

Smackshot wrote:

Or is it about the way you act in everyday life?

Certainly that is very important. But God has made it clear that if someone could somehow manage to live on this earth and not si, that would still not be enough to get them into Heaven (if they did not also accept God and Christ).

Smackshot wrote:

If so, what constitutes not acting in accordance with God? Which is the greater sin, using contraception or stealing a candy bar from a convenience store? Are all sins created equal?

Yes most Christian biblical scholars agree that all sins (except blasphemy of God and Christ … and the Holy Spirit) are equal, in terms of gaining everlasting life.

Smackshot wrote:

How many sins does it take to completely reject God?

Well one … blasphemy against God. Of course that can come in many different ways and would likely usually (although not always) be accompanied by other sins as well. If one rejects God, he/she does so in his/her heart, not just in his/her words and deeds.

Smackshot wrote:

And finally, how does any of this justify eternal punishment?

See above where I wrote "Hey it's His Heaven. If it were your Heaven and you had just mopped the floor, would you let people walk around it with muddy boots on?" He makes the rules and evidently He feels that if one is not loving of Him then one need not pack one's overnight case for Heaven, one will be going to a place considerably more balmy.

The soul is the important aspect to consider here. If your soul is pure (even though as an imperfect human you commit sin) and loving of God, you get to check out the V.I.P. room.

Smackshot

Nimby,
So what you are saying is somewhere around 60 or 70 percent of the world is going to hell, to suffer for all eternity, because they deserve it because they're not Christian, correct? You are saying that Gandhi, Socrates, Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha), Muhammad, Confucius, and countless of the other world spiritual leaders are enduring eternal punishment because they do not believe in the same god as you?

dvb

(to Smackshot)

Why ask us, why not read the Book yourself, and do your own research and get your own answers. It is not likely you would be swayed by anything we could say anyway.

Rumblefish

Smackshot wrote:

tpgsk

(to all of Smackshot’s original post)

HUHhhhhh........Because He said So !

tpgsk

There are many whys available for your questions.

You could go on forever, why? why? why? why?................................................................

Our small minds with it's Large thinking (so we believe) can not understand His Large existance.

If you had a great deal of time to ponder what to do next, how would you protect that which you just thought of?

I like what one poster said about just mopping the floor. That was great !

katmandu68

Rumblefish,

With all due respect, I just wanted to clarify your last point. People who lived before Christ's birth, resurrection and sacrificial death were still saved by faith, as with Abraham in Genesis 15:6, "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." and Moses in Psalms 103:7, "He made known His ways to Moses."

And to answer hypothetical question, "...what about person living in a remote jungle that's never heard of the Gospel, etc." there are several passages that address God's revelation of his character in nature, but one is Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

"HUHhhhhh........Because He said So ! "
That may have been a valid answer when we were kids, and mother told us to go to our room. But she probably didn't tell us to stay there for all eternity, and she hopefully did not set the room on fire...

"Why ask us, why not read the Book yourself, and do your own research and get your own answers."

As a matter of fact, I have. I've been considering these things for many years. I've also read up on many other religions and faiths. One of the conclusions I've drawn is this:
Christianity in general , from my view, focuses too much on the negativity in our lives. Guilt, fear, obligation... I went to chuch on a weekly basis only to hear how screwed up the world is, and about what a terrible person I am. "We are all sinners, living in a world of sin..." This is supposed to fill my spiritual hunger? This is supposed to bring me hope?
"But the way out is Christ..." What of my friends and family who don't believe in Christ? What of myself, who, even growing up Christian, never felt comfortable with such beliefs?
I don't believe there's a supreme being out there doling out punishment. I believe that what we send out is what we take in. If our thoughs and acts are filled with anger and hatred, we send that out to everyone and everything, to the deepest reaches of the universe. It reflects from the deepest stars and returns to us, many different times in many different ways. But when we send out love and joy and happiness, that is what returns to us, many different times in many different ways.
I don't know that it's like after death, and neither does anyone here. However, I do not believe it is "binary," because we are not "binary," we are human.
Trying to look at things positively, and to improving the world by improving myself. Trying to inspire others to do the same. I believe that is what I'm supposed to be doing, and that that is more important than chosing any particular spiritual path.
_________________
Keep away from those who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that. But a great person would make you feel that you too can be great.

NIMBY